Wrestling's Fact or Fiction: TNA vs. RoH, Shelton Benjamin, Brock Lesnar, Ric Flair the high flyer?
Submitted by Phantom Lord on Monday, April 5, 2004 at 5:11 PM EST



Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends as it is once again time to for the most controversial column on the entire IWC…Wrestling’s Fact or Fiction. As always I am your ringmaster Phantom Lord and with us as always is LOP’s man who calls it right down the middle Da Ref. I decided to change the format of Fact or Fiction because joining us as the permanent third man in the proverbial ring is Dumass. But as an added bonus we have a very dedicated member of the LOP Forums who will be the guest writer. Please welcome Japanese Buzzsaw. Well it’s been an interesting couple of weeks since Wrestlemania so lets jump right into the fire and on to the first question.

Because of the FCC Crackdown on standards, Pro Wrestling will move back towards a more family friendly style

Phantom: Well since NWA-TNA has done a 180 on the style that got them attention last year just to get a shitty time slot on Fox Sports, I’ll say this one is a big FACT. The FCC is on a moral crusade for some reason that has to do with Janet Jackson and some how her showing her tit during the Superbowl mean’s Shock Jock’s must be fined, Mid Day Soap’s must tone down the sex, and eventually all violence will have to stop. I don’t think for a minute Vince is going to change his style, but company’s like TNA will just to be safe and if Russo, Jarrett, or Borash is reading this…you know it will kill the company if you turn the show into a low budget WCW Worldwide.

J Buzz: John Cena, Lying cheating and stealing, Bitch, Ass, Middle Fingers, Juicing, and just plain old T&A push me to say FICTION. John Cena has recently toned down his freestyles but that’s about it. WWE is still using certain marketing techniques that push away certain viewers. No matter how hard the FFC pushes it seems the WWE just does not go with the flow. As long as the fans continue to pop for beer guzzling and the use of the word bitch, the small hint of nudity, blood and ever so popular woman abuse then I believe nothing not even the mighty FCC can ever make Wrestling a Family Friendly program.

Dumass: FICTION simply because Vincent K. McMahon would never allow the puny
government-issued FCC to muscle him around. During the Attitude era, Vince made it a standard to have half-naked women and loads and loads of violence to all of television. It worked and Vince doesn't like to back down from things that work in the past, no matter how outdated they are. It seems like the WWE will be bringing in a wrestler to be a retard who likes wrestling. I could have swore that Vince said he wouldn't use "shock TV" to try and get ratings, yet he premits the race card to be pushed down our necks, more silicone-rebuilt women who graciously flaunt around naked in the public eye, and permits a rapper/wrestler to have 30,000 people every week say the word "cock" without batting an eye. Yeah, Vince will keep the same crap he's been doing for years; why? Because it worked before, why not now.

Da Ref: I'm SPLIT] on this one. While I think the industry moving away from it's recent years is possible, I don't see a full return to the style that was popular almost 20 years ago. The main reason is that it's not as profitable anymore. Controversy still sells and will always sell. How much it does depends on the route that the company takes. The same goes here. It's a pretty safe bet that we won't be seeing thongs on basic cable but there is a way to keep people talking.

With TNA demanding it's stars not work for ROH and the two companies trying to work out a deal, wouldn't it make sense for both companies to pool their resources to form a bigger company

J Buzz: At first I though Fact but then I put a little thought into it and I say Fiction. TNA and RoH have produced some great matches and both companies are great little feds for younger talent to strive in. But when it all comes down to it there is nothing more important then big money! and that is exactly what Vince Mcmahon has. Vince Mcmahon is NOT an Idiot!!! the second he smells a threat in TNA he will start to buy there top talent and put them right back to square one. And before any of you argue about how loyal A.J. Styles is, save it. Because if Vince offers him the right amount of money he will whore himself right up to New York faster then you can say STYLES CLASH. So in the end my answer is a simple No. WWE has the strongest roster in all wrestling and even if TNA/RoH found a way to give them competition in the end WWE will find a way to triumph over them with a great product and with ..............................................BIG MONEY!

Da Ref: I'm going with 100% FICTION on this one. Ring of Honor and NWA:TNA have basically two different audiences. While I could see a number of ROH regulars like Samoa Joe, the Briscoes, and Special K getting over in TNA especially with their X Division, it's a different story when it comes to TNA's roster. While it could be conceivable that a large number of their X Division would get over in ROH, could you see ROH fans being receptive in a positive manner to guys like Jeff Jarrett, Glen Gilbertti, and others along that line? For the two companies to have a working relationship is a good idea. However, anything past that would be an ill-conceived notion.

Phantom: Ok with the Fienstein scandal aside, for TNA to view ROH as a competitor when ROH’s only means being seen is through video and dvd sales…it’s stupid to want to forbid your wrestlers for working for them. The way I see it, instead of saying Styles and Daniels cant wrestle for them, they should have them build as NWA-TNA stars. Get your name out into the masses because these guys wrestle in areas where people do not probably order the shows. If TNA were truly smart they would use the America’s X-Cup for a interpromotional battle. Team TNA vs. Team ROH. So yeah…FACT on this one

Dumass: I thought ROH and TNA used the same wrestlers regardless. FACT in the form of TNA should buy all their wrestlers up since ROH will not be around long. Rob Fienstein and his magical zipper have completely screwed us of any redeeming Indy wrestling that might be entertaining to watch, and now the wrestlers of ROH are doomed to Indy hell. It was bound to happen, but hopefully TNA takes advantage of this at makes some new stars from these guys.

With the recent separation of Renee Dupree from La Resistance. WWE has now given way to the opening for the next Big Heel in WWE.

Phantom: I’m Undecided. I think they have the potential for something big here. I don’t think he will be the next Rock, but Dupree is obviously a very talented kid and with the right grooming he is going to become a huge star. Hell I find myself slightly marking out for him coming to the ring with Fifi The Poodle. It’s stuff like that’s so over the top, it gets over with the fans. On the down side, instead of building him up he’s being thrown into a feud with Cena and I suspect he’ll get FU’ed and be down to Velocity in a long suffering program with Orlando Jordan by the summer.

Da Ref: FICTION. On RAW as a part of La Resitance, he and Sylvan Grenier got a good amount of heel heat when they started out because of the whole French gimmick. An old stand by for pro wrestling in the United States, fans consider foreigners to be suspect and it makes matters even more clear cut when the foreigner starts waving around his country's flag. After that, it's up to the wrestler to move past that. Unfortunately, Dupree has not managed to do that. Right now, he's getting heat but how much of that is because of his feud with John Cena?

Dumass: The last "Big Heel" that the WWE had was Brock Lesner and I don't think he'll be coming around soon. FICTION since Rene Dupree isn't much of heel in the first place, which is clearly shown by having him fued with John Cena, a guy who would make you boo FDR if he had the chance. I can't really see another BIG heel for Smackdown, though the depressing reality that Bradshaw might be it is starting to sink in. Maybe we might get lucky and he'll get injured or something. All I know is that hopefully the WWE doesn't take the gimmick too seriously and call his 'Clothesline From Hell' the 'Stock Market Crash'.

J Buzz: FACT FACT FACT! Although he still shows signs of being green, I see alot of potential in Dupree. He has: Looks, size, ability, charisma, and he has even shown me some mic skills. I think Dupree could be the breakout star of Smackdown in 2004. I see more promise in Dupree then both John Cena and Randy Orton. With a great opportunity as a singles star and one of the few Heels on Smackdown! Renee Dupree has been given the biggest opportunity out of all the young guns in the WWE and after he work his program with Cena, I think we will see big things out of Dupree.

Do you think Benoit should continue using the Sharpshooter and winning matches with it, or do you think he should drop it all together and just use the Crossface?

Dumass: I want Benoit to use the Flying Headbutt as his finisher. That move is the only move that gets him mad pops from the crowds whenever he calls for it. It would only be fitting. The Sharpshooter is a good weardown move, but it's known for Bret and you start to think that 'Hey! He's ripping off Bret!' when you see him do it, especially since J.R. can't say it without the
reference. The Crossface, though pretty brutal, is boring move. So, I say stick with the Flying Headbutt.

J Buzz: Fiction the Sharpshooter was made famous by two of the biggest legends in wrestling. Chris benoit has had an excellent career thus far and has created one of the greatest finishers of all time. Unlike the sharpshooter Benoit can slap the crossface on at anytime during a match. Whether it is out of the Baldo Bomb,Pedigree,Angle Lock,Last Ride or anyother move Benoit has made the Crossface the most versatile move since the Diamond cutter. I wish Benoit , Rock, and Lance would drop the sharpshooter all together I understand that Lance and Chris use it as a tribute to the Harts, but I think when you use one of the greatest finishers as a transition move that it somewhat takes away from it's credibility.

Da Ref: I gotta go with the CROSSFACE. That's the move he made famous. That's the move he's more associated with. Using the Sharpshooter/Scorpion Deathlock just makes him seem like he's trying to just latch on to Bret Hart and his past.

Phantom: I think he continue to use The Crossface but reserve the Sharpshooter for special occasions or really important matches. The Crossface has always been a great move. I remember a match he had with Raven where Raven was laughing from the pain before he passed out all while Benoit was screaming at him to quit. You just can’t get that with other submission holds. Besides I like the prospect of Benoit saying he can make Triple H tap at any time during any match.

After the huge build up and huge win this Monday night. It was an indication that Shelton Benjamin will find more success in singles competition than his former partner Charlie Haas will.

Dumass: FACT, but Haas does have the wares to be a big star nonetheless. Both these kids have a ton of talent each, and the idea of one being a face and the other a heel will be perfect if they stay that way. Of course, I'm looking at the next inter-promotional PPV which is Summerslam. I would love to see these two go at it in a midcard fight. Shelton, I do think, will be a huge star if he's shown off correctly and he takes care of his body well enough, but Haas may not be too far behind
Shelton as everyone believes.

J Buzz: Fact I feel the sameway about Shelton that I do about Dupree with one exception. Benjamin is excellent in the ring. If WWE plays off of this win against Triple H Shelton could be RAWs huge baby face. I am sure Triple H will get his heat back by pinning young Shelton, and that is fine as long as they have another solid match and as long as Triple H has a difficult time pinning Shelton. By doing this it makes Shelton look like a tough credible face. I have not heard a pop like the one Shelton recieved after he pinned Triple H since the height of popularity of both Rock and Austin.WWE has opened up a great opportunity up for Shelton and if they take advantage of this then WWE can make alot of money.

Da Ref: FICTION. Nothing has been fully proven in terms of how far Benjamin's career will go. Think about a great number of guys who got wins over top names with the company while still on the outside looking in. The Patriot over Bret Hart before he regained the WWF Title.... Mabel over the Undertaker in the 1995 King of the Ring...then you have to look at when Rob Van Dam and Booker T got wins over Helmsley while he was RAW Champion. Yet, how many of them have seen serious singles success? What matters isn't getting the win and the push. It's the ability for all involved to make the most of them to create a new superstar.

Phantom: I think Shelton is going to be the bigger star simply because he can cut a promo and he has the charismatic look that works wonders for real athletes like himself. Charlie Haas on the other hand I think will be the next Chris Benoit. He’s a guy who doesn’t need to cut a promo to get himself over. His in ring talent speaks for itself. But since Shelton can cut a promo, he will be the one to become the bigger star and in the long run he will find more success then his former partner. So FACT on this one.

By acquiring Bill Goldberg for one more run WWE is not only heading in the right direction, but if handled well they could find big money in a feud between Stone Cold Steve Austin and Bill Goldberg

J Buzz: What was the biggest match people wanted to see back in 1998? Who Challenged Stone Cold Steve Austin to a fight for ten grand on the Tonight Show? Bill Goldberg vs Stone Cold Steve Austin =Attack of the Clones has money written all over it even in 2004. I think if marketed right it could pull in alot of the fans who watched both WCW and WWE back in the late 90's I don't think anyone to this day can challenge the intensity that Bill Goldberg brings to the ring, The man has a presence about him that is second to none. I remember Summerslam 2003 the Elimination Chamber, It was nothing special until Golberg came out! at that very moment I saw the Goldberg of old. He dominated everyone in the ring within seconds and when he went after Triple H and broke through the plexy glass it was a site to say the least. After that day Goldberg went on a tear and finally won the World Title from Triple H and even dominated all of evolution during that fued. Re-signing Goldberg for an instant fued with Austin could draw some interest, and they already have the perfect opportuniy after he was stunned at WM 20 to start6 the fued between the two men. If Austin can get back in ring shape I think they could Headline a pay per view and put on a pretty good match that makes me say FACT.

Phantom: Despite how they used Goldberg, there is huge money to be made off a Goldberg/Austin match. I think if they had Goldberg come back as a full fledged heel and he went off on Austin being a broken down cripple who can’t step out of the spotlight, that would sew the seeds for a huge match in the future. We all know Austin can still wrestle. Austin’s saving his alleged last matches for something big, Austin vs. Goldberg would be something really big as it would finally be the WWF vs. WCW match we all wanted to see. So yeah FACT on this one. Vince would be stupid not to try and make this the main event of Wrestlemania 21.

Dumass: FICTION and if Vince was smart, he won't hire Goldberg back.

Da Ref: FICTION. The ball was dropped a while back with the way WWE booked Goldberg. As far as a feud between Austin & Goldberg, this isn't 1998 when both guys were the big money players they're known for being.

The Eugene Character rumored for Nick Dinsmore will be the 2004 version of the Beaver Cleavage gimmick which turned into a worked shoot

J Buzz: Fiction- Reports have said that WWE brass are very high on the Eugene character which leads me to believe that he will be a legit character. WWE at some point will probably receive complaints about the character and they may or may not change the gimmick, Whatever the end result maybe I don't think we will be seeing Dinsmore wrestle in his boxers or becoming a questionable woman abuser. But yeah never know this is WWE.

Da Ref: I'll go more towards FACT on this one. I already see doom on the horizon for this gimmick. For one thing, let's be honest and just say that Dinsmore will be playing a mentally challenged person. Now, with WWE's past portrayal of stereotyped persons, does anyone expect the company to actually shy away from making Eugene look like, and I know I'm gonna burn in Hell for saying this, a retard? I'm making a $20 bet here and now that there will be at least one mention about him "riding the special bus" to the arena. If he's put on RAW with Jerry Lawler on commentary, forget the bet because it's
like betting that the sun will rise the next morning.

Phantom: When I first read about this, I first thought it has to be a planted story. McMahon told this to a certain number of people to try and find out who is leaking information to Meltzer and Keller. But since this is the same creative staff who came up with Katie Vick, Al Wilson, and so many other bombs I can see this gimmick being true. But the sheer nature of it reminds me of Beaver Cleavage. We have a guy in Nick Dinsmore who has been in OVW for over seven years. That’s an eternity for a developmental wrestler. I can see him doing this gimmick and at first it will probably draw a What the fuck from the common fan and then maybe a month or so in, he’ll be backstage doing a goofball promo when suddenly he stops and says he can't do this shit anymore and he says this was all Bischoff’s idea and I can’t go on doing this. You better believe this is a FACT…unless this is for real and he’s gonna stick with it. In which case, expect some retarded (no pun intended) right’s group to protest and get Vince some cheap 5 minute segment on O’Reliy or Scarborough.

Dumass: FICTION because if you agree to play a retard in front of millions of people, you have no right to bitch and complain.

After walking out on WWE and flipping off the live crowd in MSG. Brock Lesnar has forever tarnished his impressive career and respect with his recent actions.

Phantom: On the contrary, I think he tapped into some hatred that the WWE didn’t even know existed in the fans. Sure he’s tarnished his career by being a little bitch who can’t handle being a success, but I think if he ever comes back he’ll be bigger then ever simply cause the fans will pay to see who can beat him. It will be like Piper and Hogan. People paid to see Hogan beat Piper. All they have to do is find someone to fill the role of Hogan and their set. FICTION on this one.

J Buzz: Nothing will change the fact that Brock Lesnar is the youngest WWE champion in the company’s history or the fact that he is one the of the few Undisputed Champs. No one can erase all of the big wins he had in his 2 year career and no one can match Lesnar’s pure wrestling ability other than a handful of men. Now has he lost the credibility of the WWE's roster.... I would say YES. Lance Storm said it best in is column. A lot of men worked very hard to put over Lesnar and to make him look very impressive! Hell Kurt Angle worked WM 19 in very bad condition just to put the guy over. If Brock
Lesnar comes back then I think it will take a long time for him to gain the respect back from alot of the peers he left high and dry.

Dumass: FACT. There just isn't much for me to say about it. It's his own damn
fault; I hope he can live with it.

Da Ref: I don't know. I'd have to go with FICTION on that one. Isn't there someone that made his career-flipping people off and walked out on the company back in 2002 but still gets tremendous respect from the fans?

Retro: Had WWE given Jake the Snake Roberts a world title push. He could have been the greatest Heel Champion of all time.

Dumass: FICTION. No one will ever get to the majestic stance of Ric Flair and Harley Race. Jake Roberts would have been a very impressive champion and maybe one of the best ever for the WWF, but he would have to drop the idea of a credible contender once he won the title. It's like how DiBiase, Owen, Henning, and many others just didn't seem do fit the mold for a perfect World Champion, and neither would Jake Roberts.

Phantom: In retrospect had he been a champion, he would have been seen as a great heel but he would of forever been one thing and one thing only and that’s a transition champion much like The Undertaker was in-between Hulk Hogan and Ric Flair in 91-92. Now had WCW done something with him, he would have been a great World Champion there considering he had a big feud with Sting. But in the grand scheme of things, Jake might be the greatest psychological wrestler ever but he would have never reached the standard of being a heel champion set by Ric Flair so FICTION on this one.

Da Ref: I'm gonna say FICTION on this one. While Roberts had a lot of the qualities needed in a wrestler, he just never seemed like WWF/WWE World Championship material.

J Buzz: Perhaps the greatest psychological promos I have ever seen in my life. Jake the Snake Roberts was one of the most underrated wrestlers of all time. I truly believe if he was given the opportunity as WWE's top heel then we could have seen some great things from him. When Jake Roberts would cut a promo he did not just blab and yell, he would bring you into his promos he would make it feel like it was you he was taking on, Whether it was his stare down on his opponent when he walked to the ring, or his great finisher the DDT Jake Roberts was all about the psychology in wrestling and he could hold a crowd in the palm of his hand. I cant say for sure he would have been the greatest heel champion of all time, but I truly believe he definitely would have been one of the greatest. FICTION

Retro: Ric Flair always goes up to the top rope when his opponent is on the ground, but in the end he always gets slammed off the top rope. This question is one that has stumped people for ages. What move is Flair exactly going for when he goes up to the top rope?

Phantom: Isn’t it obvious? Flair has adapted with the times better then everyone else. When he goes up to the top rope now he’s setting up for The Nature Boy 450 Corkscrew Splash. Seriously I think he was always going for an elbow drop or something, but consider yourself lucky if you’ve ever seen Ric pull off a High Cross Body or the Double Ax Handle because the number of matches he’s gone to the top rope and not gotten slammed off it are few and in between.

Da Ref: Actually, if you watch enough Flair matches, you'll see him come off the top with either a HIGH CROSS BODY PRESS or a FOREARM SMASH. The mistake that's made is just watching him during his heel runs. If you watch his face runs in like 1989, he has actually hit one or two moves off the top.

J Buzz: Hmmm That’s a damn good question. I have heard that he once used a crossbody block to beat Barry Windahm for the NWA title but I have never seen it happen so I will have to say..... I have no Idea what good old Nat'ch is thinking of doing when he is on the top rope, But dammit it still makes me lugh to this day.

Dumass: I personally always believed he would pull off the best Shooting Star Press ever.

Retro: If the rumor's of ECW coming back are true, should Rhyno be credited with a 3 year plus World Heavyweight and World Television title run as Champion or should all the titles be vacated?

Da Ref: FICTION but who cares. ECW officially died back in 2001. Bringing it back will get a nice "Welcome Back" pop at first but that will go away after the fans realize that it's just WWE doing their impression on ECW.

J Buzz: Fiction- This is a new era for ECW so they should have all the titles vacated. A Clean slate calls for a fresh start.

Dumass:They should be vacated. It's a new faction, it's a new federation; it's the rules.

Phantom: Logic would dictate that all the titles would be vacant, but if the rumor of Heyman bringing back ECW to be a “renegade” brand is true and Wrestlers who are loyal to him leave RAW and Smackdown, then I would think that Rhyno would be still recognized as the ECW World Heavyweight & ECW World Television Champion. What I want to know is, would Danny Doring and Roadkill still be the ECW World Tag Team Champions. It’s a shame the WWE never signed those two. With them you had two guys who were thrown together and they did the impossible and got over and became a huge success. Of course I would rather not see ECW come back, but if I see an ECW match in the ECW Arena again…I won’t be complaining.

And now the all important plugs

Lethal Wrestling: Fact Is Always Worse Than Fiction

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