Wrestlings Fact or Fiction: R.O.T.W Explanation, Hulk Hogan, The Shoot @ B.A.T.B 2000
Submitted by Phantom Lord on Saturday, November 29, 2003 at 2:47 AM EST



Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends. As always I am Phantom Lord and with me is LOP’s man who calls it right down the middle, the one and only Da Ref. Before I intro our special guest panelist, I’m going to address a little situation I have created for myself in my own column “The Rant of the Week”. As a lot of you who read it know, a good portion of the column was written in a foreign language of sorts. It’s a combination of Latin and gibberish that web developer’s call Lorem Ipsum. I did this because I had a theory I wanted to test. My theory is that people only read certain portions what’s in front of them and not the entire piece. A lot of you have proven me wrong. You indeed read the whole column. But there is no translation to be made. It’s simply dummy text and it was meant to be filler material in ever sense of the word. I’ll go in depth next week with my column, but I figured I owed most of you an explanation of sorts for this column. No harm was meant. I figured some of you would get a good laugh out of it on this off week.

Ah well enough of the heat I can cause. Joining us this week is a former columnist here on LOP. Please welcome one half of the former PWA World Tag Team Champions “The MP Mafia”, Blazing Phoenix.

Greetings, all. I am Blazing Phoenix. It's been a while since my last main page appearance. You may remember my column "Out of the Ashes" which appeared regularly for about a year, thanks to Calvin Martin. I've been a wrestling fan since the late '80's, though my attention to the sport has waned a bit of late since I'm in the midst of my college career, and wrestling is not as accessible to me as it once was. I still follow as much as I can, and I'm thankful to Phantom Lord for giving me the chance to appear here today. I just hope I don't embarrass him.

Well I hope I answered some of your questions, but for now it’s on to the real ones…

Fact or Fiction: Vince McMahon booking himself against Steve Austin at Wrestlemania 20 would be the biggest mistake in company history

Phantom Lord: You people know where I stand on Vince and him putting himself over everyone else. You can just imagine what kind of ego trip he’s gonna have going into this show. But for the question at hand, I do believe this could be the biggest mistake in company history…so FACT on this one. There is only one match that should main event Wrestlemania 20 and that’s Hulk Hogan vs. Steve Austin. It’s fairly obvious that Hogan will be the NWA World Heavyweight Champion come March 2004. I think they should go for a monster money angle with TNA where Hogan comes back for Wrestlemania 20 and he defends the title against Austin. It would spark some real fan interest and it would be with out a doubt an ultimate dream match. Even if they don’t do all that, squandering what will most likely be Austin’s last ever match on a brawl with Vince McMahon would be a huge let down and it would be something they probably never would recover from.

Da Ref: I'll go with FACT. It's very simple. The fans don't pay their money to see non-wrestlers in the ring. It is especially more of a hindrance when one non-wrestler has been featured in matches over the past year. Plus, this isn't 1998-1999. The whole Austin-McMahon feud has lost steam. As much as people may claim that they would like to see that angle again, remember one huge factor: the writing. Now, this could be another rant by me about the writing team but let's look at something. During the time where that feud was a moneymaker, the main people on the writing team were Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara, who haven't been a part of the Creative Team since 1999. Right now, there is no one on the writing team who was even associated with that same team. It's easy to just throw out something that was successful but that doesn't mean it'll work the second time around.

Blazing Phoenix: I'm going to go with FICTION on this one. As many times as it's been done before, there's worse things that could be done. For example, Linda vs. Austin, Steph vs. Austin, etc. At least Vince has the advantage of having some experience in the ring, and against Austin. Although, at Wrestlemania...it's still not a good idea, but it's not the worst.

Fact or Fiction: Hulk Hogan will wrestle at Wrestlemania 20 even if he wrestle’s on NWA-TNA’s ppv Bound for Glory the month before

Blazing Phoenix: Tough one here. I'll go with FICTION. After Hogan's last (largely) unsuccessful run with the WWE, Vince isn't going to be begging him to come back. He'd have to be worked into an angle sometime before that, as well, and there's no real place on the roster that he can just slide in and fill. So unless he's willing to come back cheaply for one night and job to a young up-and-comer (of Vince's choosing), I'm saying it won't happen.

Phantom Lord: With all the money involved for Wrestlemaina 20 for all party’s concerned, you know this has to be a FACT. I think we might see a little interpromotional fun rolling into Wrestlemania 20 since I’m convinced Hogan will be NWA World Heavyweight Champion at that time. Bound for Glory will be what TNA is judged on in the coming year and I think it would be stupid of Vince not to have Hogan at Wrestlemania 20 simply because he worked someone else’s ppv the month before. As I said in the first question, I think we will see Hogan vs. Austin at Wrestlemania 20. That is a true dream match and Vince isn’t dumb enough to let that one slip away.

Da Ref: Oy vey! That's an interesting one. Unless the Jarrett's get a deal together, I could see that as FACT depending on a few things. The 20th Wrestlemania in the venue that it started at. Right there is serious money. However, the idea that the guy that headlined the 1st Wrestlemania being there in a match could add a few more buyrates. If McMahon is willing to shell out the money for it, I don't think Hogan would be dumb enough to turn it down.

Fact or Fiction: Generic Big men like Matt Morgan and Nathan Jones are ruining the flow of the wrestling on Smackdown

Da Ref: I guess I'll go with FACT but not just because of them being big guys. It's more of a case of them wrestling the usual "big man" style. They go for power moves. They toss guys around during the entire match. They do a lot of no-selling. Whenever they show their emotions, you can just hear them say "HULK SMASH!" to the crowd. Meanwhile, they don't separate themselves from the pack. Think about it. If you had Morgan and Jones wrestling under masks with shirts covering their arms, would you really be able to tell them apart in a match? Mike Awesome has always been hit or miss in his matches but the fact that he threw an occasional plancha or some other aerial maneuver at least separated him from the rest.

Blazing Phoenix: Once again, I'm gonna go with FICTION, which kind of hurts my sensibilities as an actual fan of WRESTLING. But I understand how many fans would become bored with technically sound matches. You need to have a big guy out there to lay waste to people, showcase big power moves, and instill some of that belief that wrestling is still real. Granted, weak big boots and little to no introduction to the fans aren't going to make a successful wrestler out of anybody, but at least they look the part. I don't mind seeing them in the midcard with their skill level, but they're getting pushed too high, too fast, without the skills to back it up.

Phantom Lord: I’m gonna say FACT on this one. Morgan and Jones are indeed generic big men who offer nothing interesting to the show they are on. Ok, so they can toss Shannon Moore around like the proverbial sack of potato’s, but other then that they are both just a couple of green rookies who are only getting their push because of their size. Now I’ll admit, I like Jones gimmick. But for someone who is supposed to be a BAH GAWD Certifiable Monster, he should be at least able to cut a scary promo and do more then 1980’s Big Man moves. Morgan on the other hand should have been given a proper gimmick because as it is right now he’s exactly like Bastista…minus the 100 lbs of muscle mass from steroids.

Fact or Fiction: MLW will be able to become a viable 3rd company like ECW in two years time

Phantom Lord: I’m going to say FICTION on this one, but it’s not like MLW isn’t trying to be that #3 promotion. I always thought if any company would become the new number 3 it would be NWA Wildside. Give that company a used bingo hall and some money for better camera’s and BOOM you got yourselves the new ECW. It’s hard to say where MLW will be in two years time. It’s hard to say where any of us will be in two years time. I think if they get their act together and get onto a cable network like MSG or Fox Sports then maybe they will be, but at the present time it looks like they won’t be so until things change I’m gonna say Fiction.

Da Ref: FICTION. First of all and I know I'll get a lot of heat for this but the only reason ECW was the "3rd company" was by default. If you look at their history, they made more of an impact in the business before Paul Heyman tried to take them to PPV and national cable deals. As far as MLW goes, I think they have a good thing going. The problem is that they are still an independent company. Meanwhile, they're also trying to follow in ECW's footsteps of trying to push themselves as more than what they are. Right now, they are a viable proving ground in terms of indies similar to OVW, NWA Wildside, ROH, ECWA, and others. In two years time, maybe they'll be ready for a serious syndication deal. However, they first need to get past their first full year.

Blazing Phoenix: FICTION once again. With today's market, MLW won't be able to get on TV without a huge bankroll. Right now, their smaller, unstable roster is a huge liability to them, as well as the fact that a number of their bigger name stars are getting on in years. And most of their other stars work for numerous promotions. Before they can even have a shot at challenging the WWE, they need to fix these problems. And out of curiosity, if they're the 3rd company, who's the second? I wouldn't consider the NWA-TNA competition until they come to free TV.

Fact or Fiction: It would be a good business move for NWA-TNA to sign Dustin Rhodes now that the WWE is releasing him

Da Ref: As good of a worker as he can be, I'd have to go with FICTION for a couple of reasons. First of all, one of the comments that was made by WWE was that Dustin had become somewhat injury prone. To me, it's hard to start anything serious with someone if you're not sure whether or not they could remain injury free for long enough to really get them going. It's why I've been leery of whether or not Randy Orton could be a superstar. The second thing is the most important. If Dustin is released from WWE, that means he can't take the Goldust character with him, which has always been what got him over. Think back to his history in the business. There was never a time where he was over as someone other than Goldust. It's sort of like Mark Hamill after Star Wars. When he was in a movie playing someone other than Luke Skywalker, the fans weren't really interested.

Phantom Lord: I’d say this is a FACT. It would be dumb for TNA not to sign him since he is a damn good wrestler for starters. Plus brining him in to work with his father just has so many possibilities. I’m glad he won’t be Goldust anymore since I think that character played it self out in 99 when he started dressing like a real freak. Rhodes is a southern brawler that the fans of TNA love and I remember a long time ago reading this caption under a pic of a bloody Dusty and Dustin Rhodes from some show in Japan. “The family that bleeds together does laundry together”. I’m not quite sure what it means, but Dustin Rhodes would be a great fit in TNA.

Blazing Phoenix: Ah, my first FACT. After Rhodes' last WWE run, he proved he still has the ability both in and out of the ring. The only problem would be finding an appropriate gimmick for him. I say give him a Barry Windham-like gimmick and let him run loose on a brawling spree. Nothing inspires fear like a cowboy who can fake an Australian accent.

Fact or Fiction: Abyss of NWA-TNA will be a huge star in five years time

Blazing Phoenix: Unfortunately, I have not seen any of his work. Therefore, I'll have to remain NEUTRAL on this one. But I'll argue both ways. It could be FACT, because 5 years is a long time, and a person can improve and accomplish a ridiculous amount in that time period. However, it could be FICTION, because if you need 5 years to develop, you might not have "it" to begin with. To put it simply, you've got AJ Styles vs. Mark Henry. Now there's a styles...clash...Get it?

Da Ref: FICTION. I'm not going insult him but he seems like that one indy guy that so many people praise but ends up being tossed to the back of the line within a year. I realize that it's a short comment but I don't really have much to say about him.

Phantom Lord: Based on what I’ve seen of him, I’m going to say FACT on this one. He reminds me of Kane when he first debuted in 1997. He doesn’t speak and he just destroys people. Add to that the fact that he does the unthinkable for a big man and he sells his small opponents moves and we have the makings of a future star. It’s hard to say who will be where in 5 years, but in that time I think it’s safe to say he will be a former World Heavyweight Champion.

Fact or Fiction: Feuding with Vince McMahon would ruin John Cena’s career in the long run

Phantom Lord: Let’s see, where have I seen this one before. Vince the boss fights his big face of the moment. Of course this is a FACT. John Cena is on the verge of becoming something huge. We know the WWE is going push him as the new Eminem when his cd comes out next year. But what will he gain by feuding with Vince McMahon. We know how it’s going to go down. Vince sicks the A-Train on him and he goes through him. Then The Big Show (He’ll win the U.S Title from him) and then finally Vince will attack Cena and that will set up a match where Cena beats the dog shit out of him only to get screwed over in the end by a bloody Vince McMahon. Been there…done that as they would say. It would only hurt Cena in the long run. I still say they should send him to RAW. He would fit in well with a live microphone and audience.

Da Ref: FACT. How many careers have been really helped because someone feuded with Vince? There's the argument about Steve Austin but Austin was on the rise no matter what. While I think his ring work is average, I really enjoy John Cena's gimmick. The character really comes across well and he has managed to make a clean transition from heel to face with it, which is what helped Austin and Maivia become huge. He's on his way to becoming a big name with the company and could be someone that can run with the ball. However, that would be hampered by being Vince's next Feud of the Month.

Blazing Phoenix: FICTION, as long as he doesn't have to job cleanly to Vince. Being picked out by the boss usually indicates favoritism in a good way, so this can only help him. Especially if he impresses Vince enough to keep getting wins. Hell, even if he has to job to Vince, it won't hurt him that much. Ruin his credibility for a short time? Maybe. But he'll get the support that he needs to make it.

Fact or Fiction: Kurt Angle should retire rather then continue to injure his neck and opt for the quick fix surgery

Blazing Phoenix: You had to ask this question, didn't you? I've got to say FICTION, because I love Angle too much to see him go. He's one of the best things the WWE's got going, and has been for a long time. However, I would like to see him get the real surgery, and be out for a year getting fully rehabbed. Right now, the WWE is actually building up new stars, so it's as good a time as any for him to take a break. With Shawn Michaels proving that people can come back, Kurt has nothing to worry about in regards to proving his worth. Especially since he wouldn't be gone nearly as long.

Phantom: It depends on how well Kurt Angle is able to perform in the ring. If he can come back and put on a match like he did with Charlie Haas, then I’m going to say FICTION on this one. If anything, Angle probably just revolutionized sports medicine with his amazing recovery. But if Angle keeps having to have bone chips removed, I think he should do what’s best for him and step aside. He’s all ready done more in 5 years then most guys will in their entire career. But for the moment if he can come back and still be Kurt Angle, then Fiction on this one since he still has a lot left in his tank.

Da Ref: This falls more in the DEPENDS category. If he feels he has nothing more to accomplish in the business, I think he should. After all, he's the only man to have won the World, Intercontinental and European Titles along with King of the Ring within a one year period. He also did all of that within his first year with the company. He's main evented Wrestlemania. Bottom line, he's done more in less than 5 years than most guys have been able to accomplish in 10. However, if he wants to become a true legend, retirement is not an option at this time. I realize a lot of people will disagree with me but Kurt Angle has not reached legendary status. You need to have been in the business for at least 10 years and have been able to work at a main event level during those years. Can Angle do it? It's possible but you can't just assume it after less than 5 years.

Retro Fact or Fiction: Vader should have been given a World Title run in 96-early 97 instead of Sid Vicious in the WWF

Da Ref: As far as the WWF version of Vader, I'll say FICTION. Vader was like a lot of former WCW stars that decided to "further" their career in the WWF but ended up falling flat because they didn't work the WWF style. In Japan and WCW, Vader was a true mastadon. He could wrestle a solid big man match but throw in stuff that you normally wouldn't see in a man his size. He would execute dropkicks and suplexes as well as use submission holds besides just a bear hug or backbreaker. In the WWF, they just sent him out there but not really be motivated to create some common ground on how to have him work.

Phantom Lord: You know this is a FACT. Even though he was the watered down version of Vader, he still was the most physically imposing big man that the company had. Hell he took out Yokozuna (Though State Athletic Commissions helped in that process). Vader and Shawn Michaels had a hell of a match at Summer Slam 96 and I think they should continued that feud through the rest of the year with Vader coming out on top at The Survivor Series and Shawn winning it back in his home town. Vader once held Three World Titles on Three different continents at the same time. He had the credibility to be WWF World Champion that’s for damn sure.

Blazing Phoenix: FACT, pure and simple. Vader had more talent than Vicious ever did. Hell, I remember watching Vader come out with that big elephant-y helmet thing and being really scared of him. And his promos made you think that he really didn't care about anybody. Plus, I saw him piledrive Cactus Jack on the concrete. That was badass back in the day. Vicious was big and sweaty and insane looking, but he couldn't do much in the ring, even for a big man. And he sounded like a moron in interviews. The only thing against Vader was his body. It wasn't really what you'd associate with a WWF champ at the time. But for a man that big, he could really move. Vader-sault, anybody?

Retro Fact of Fiction: The “incident” at Bash at the Beach 2000 with Jeff Jarrett, Hulk Hogan, and Vince Russo was a work and not a shoot

Phantom Lord: I think TNA will prove this to be a work in the next couple of months so, FACT on this one. For Russo to come out and do what he did, it had to be a work. For a company like WCW with so many middle managers from AOLTime Warner running around, do you really think they would of let that go on had it not be on the script ahead of time? Sure one can argue the commentators and boys in the back didn’t know, but it’s fair to say Hogan, Russo, and Jarrett were in on this along with the road agents and producers of the show.

Blazing Phoenix: I have to believe that's a FACT. There are so few actual shoots that happen in public, on camera, that it's hard to believe otherwise. One thing that speaks to this is the fact that camera kept rolling. If it were truly a shoot, someone would have pulled the plug. That's the advantage of being the big company. You have all the power. In the radio interview shoots, there's no threat of being fired, blacklisted, or whatever. On a major federation PPV? Never happen. Gotta be a work.

Da Ref: I can actually give a little bit of info into this. I'll say FACT BUT the real question is who was involved in it. It would be safe to say that Jarrett and Russo were in on it. Hogan could've been in on it also. There's the slight chance that Booker T, who would later on that night take the WCW Title from Jarrett, knew about it. However, I can tell you one group that wasn't in on it were the announcers. Back in 2002, I worked a show in Alma, Georgia and one of the people involved was Scott Hudson, who was an announcer for Bash at the Beach 2000. At that time, there was the big internet deal about an NWA Main Event show in Tennessee where Jim Cornette got into an argument with Ed Ferrara, who was there with Don West. I asked him about it and he confirmed the whole thing and then talked about BOTB 2000. Apparently, Hudson and Tony Schiavone were watching what was going on with their mouths wide open. So, it's easy to say the whole thing was a work. The big question was who all was in on it.


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